Posts by Disillusioned JW

In one the pages of this topic thread Sea Breeze provided a link to https://island.lk/lucidity-before-death-brain-releasing-consciousness/ in an effort to support his claims regarding “terminal lucidity”. That article presents ideas which challenge some of my beliefs regarding human consciousness. After reading it I then found an article at https://www.newsweek.com/near-death-experiences-out-body-phenomenon-study-1757602 which might provide some support for some of Sea Breeze's claims of “terminal lucidity” and of the idea that the human mind might not be a product of the brain. Newsweek is a news journal which I have trusted since childhood as a reliable source of news, including on matters of science. The article has numerous quotes of Dr. Sam Parnia, the lead investigator of a study "which was presented at the American Heart Association's Scientific Sessions 2022". The article says the study "showed a spike in gamma wave brain activity. Gamma waves are active when a conscious person retrieves memories and mentally processes information." The article also says the following.

'Researchers across 25 institutions were equipped with electroencephalograms (EEGs) and other equipment. When emergency personnel was notified of a person in cardiac arrest, the researchers also were notified and were able to record the patient's brain activity while the medical team provided life-saving care.

According to the study, humans recalling a lucid heightened experience reported similar happenings and themes during the experience.

... But a different experience specifically caught Parnia's attention.

"The most interesting aspect of this is [the patient] starts to have full memories of everything they have done and all their thoughts and intentions toward other people throughout their entire life," he said, relating the memory recognition as equivalent to an instant computer data download.

... "It's a purposeful, meaningful reevaluation of every aspect with a focus on morality and ethics and how they conducted themselves. It's really quite bizarre," he said.

One of the most fascinating discoveries, according to Parnia, is that a person's consciousness doesn't die when the body dies.

"What seems to be happening as a person is dying, their brain is shutting down and in this process disinhibition, braking systems [in the brain] are being removed because they are no longer relevant," said Parnia, referencing how people can only access a small part of their brain's consciousness at one time.

"This disinhibition seems to give access to parts of the brain become activated and seeing spikes in EEG activity and gives access to dimensions of reality they otherwise did not have access to, including full consciousness."

The study, which was internally and independently peer-reviewed, found those who survived resuscitation and recalled a lucid heightened experience returned to regular consciousness and came equipped with a higher purpose.'

After reading that article I then found and read the article located at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Parnia about Parnia. It says he is "... associate professor of Medicine at the NYU Langone Medical Center where he is also director of research into cardiopulmonary resuscitation. The article also says the following.

'Parnia and others have suggested that a mind that is mediated by, but not produced by, the brain, is a possible way to explain NDE.[5][28][29]

1. one envisages the psyche/consciousness/mind (self) as the result of neuronal activity. So a causative relationship exists between cortical activity and consciousness.
2. the other instead considers that consciousness is separate from the brain and can influence brain activity independently of the brain.

Parnia explains that the observations that "the human mind, consciousness, or psyche (self) may continue to function when brain function has ceased during the early period after death" (such as during the AWARE study, but not only) points to the possibility that the second model may have to be taken into account.[31] '

That also might also support some of Sea Breeze's claims.

I plan to comment more about these articles after I do the following: do some other tasks, analyze further the three articles, and do further research on the topic.

Kosonen I noticed that you said the UN has a prayer room (though the article which you linked to says it is 'The Meditation Room, sometimes called “A Room of Quiet” ' instead of calling it a prayer room). I don't find that surprising since many years after I graduated from my university I noticed in a visit to my university that it now has a prayer-meditation room for the students. It even includes a Bible and a Koran in the room. However I was initially surprised when I discovered that my university now has prayer-meditation room for the students.

Correction: I had some typos in my prior post where I said the following. "One page 5 of this topic thread Sea Breeze mentions a case which regarding a purported Out of Body Experience (OBE) which I had learned of years ago (why I was researching the possibility of OBE and ESP, despite me already being an atheistic naturalist at the time). I learned back in discussions from an atheistic friend of my (who is medical doctor and ex-Christian) that a naturalist explanation was discovered. (see below in the quote of the Wikipedia article)." I meant to say the following. "One page 5 of this topic thread Sea Breeze mentions a case regarding a purported Out of Body Experience (OBE) which I had learned of years ago (while I was researching the possibility of OBE and ESP, despite me already being an atheistic naturalist at the time). I learned back then in discussions from an atheistic friend of mine (who is medical doctor and ex-Christian) that a naturalist explanation was discovered. (see below in the quote of the Wikipedia article)."

Further information: In my prior post quoted a Wikipedia article which included a quote of Terence Hines. The Wikipedia about Terence Hines located at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_Hines says the following.

"A fellow of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry, Hines is the author of Pseudoscience and the Paranormal which focuses on the fields of pseudoscience and the paranormal in the United States.

... In his book, Hines argues that pseudoscience tends not to be updated in the face of newly obtained evidence, and he highlights the difficulty in clearly demarcating pseudoscience from the paranormal.[5]: 242  He also postulates that if paranormal abilities such as clairvoyance or precognition were possible, then surely one would expect casino and lottery incomes to be affected, although no such effect is observed.[6]: 635  "

Sea Breeze, you haven't provided any documentation in support of your claim of "Cases of verified brain dead patients acting and speaking completely normally shortly before death". What you even mean of "brain dead ... shortly before death"? Do you mean they became brain dead, later their brains became alive again, and even later the patients the became fully dead? If so, where is your documentation for such. I have read from scientific sources that no one who was truly brain dead ever came back to life and that no one who was truly brain dead ever regained consciousness and/or speaking ability. Where is your evidence? Does it merely consist of anecdotal reports of unverifiable claims, instead of scientifically documented evidence?

Sea Breeze and other readers, note what the medical science says about those who are truly brain dead.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/articles/the-challenges-of-defining-and-diagnosing-brain-death says the following.

"The panel was moderated by anesthesiologist and critical care specialist Robert Stevens, who says the line between life and death, once clearly perceptible in the form of a beating heart, is now sometimes harder to see because of advances in lifesaving technologies.

The modern intensive care unit can keep a person with severe brain injuries alive, he says, but may also mask evidence that the person has died. The shift from a deep coma to brain death—permanent cessation of all brain function—may not be immediately obvious to an untrained observer. Yet recognizing this transition from life to death is critical for families, the medical team and potential organ recipients.

When a patient dies, doctors stop treatment and instead focus on organ viability. The body is kept on life-support machinery if the patient was a registered organ donor or while the family makes decisions about organ donation.

... The consultant performs a full neurological examination to determine if there are any signs of brain or brainstem function. This includes assessing the drive to take a breath, determining whether pupils react to light, and swabbing the back of the throat to elicit a gag reflex. The neurological examination must be repeated at least once after a minimum interval of six hours, to ensure that brain function is not temporarily suppressed by factors such as high doses of narcotics or intense cold.

... Defining the Terms

Brain death is often confused with other conditions that seem similar, such as coma and vegetative state.

Brain death: Irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem. A person who is brain dead is dead, with no chance of revival."

Notice that the article said it is very hard to determine when a person is truly brain dead. The article even says brain function is sometimes "temporarily suppressed by factors such as high doses of narcotics or intense cold". It also says "Brain death: Irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem. A person who is brain dead is dead, with no chance of revival."

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/brain-death/ says the following.

"Brain death (also known as brain stem death) is when a person on an artificial life support machine no longer has any brain functions. This means they will not regain consciousness or be able to breathe without support.

A person who is brain dead is legally confirmed as dead. They have no chance of recovery because their body is unable to survive without artificial life support.

Brain death is legal death

If someone is brain dead, the damage is irreversible and, according to UK law, the person has died.

It can be confusing to be told someone has brain death, because their life support machine will keep their heart beating and their chest will still rise and fall with every breath from the ventilator.

But they will not ever regain consciousness or start breathing on their own again. They have already died.

... After brain death, it is not possible for someone to remain conscious.

... Tests to confirm brain death

Although rare, a few things can make it appear as though someone is brain dead.

These include drug overdoses (particularly from barbiturates) and severe hypothermia.

A number of tests are carried out to check for brain death, such as shining a torch into both eyes to see if they react to the light.

Find out more about diagnosing brain death "

The boldface in that quote of the nhs.uk is their boldface, I did not add that boldface. But the underlining was added by me, for emphasis.

The above quotes of two medical science sources (of highly trusted organizations for medical science information) totally refute and disprove Sea Breeze's unsubstantiated claim of "3. Cases of verified brain dead patients acting and speaking completely normally shortly before death"!

The above two medical science sources thus prove what I said above, namely the following. "I have read from scientific sources that no one who was truly brain dead ever came back to life and that no one who was truly brain dead ever regained consciousness and/or speaking ability."

Readers, Sea Breeze has no proof that truly brain dead people have ever returned to life. He also has no proof that truly brain dead people have regained consciousness.

'In the fields of cognitive science and psychology OBEs are considered dissociative experiences arising from different psychological and neurological factors.[5][8][9][10][12][13][14] Scientists consider the OBE to be an experience from a mental state, like a dream or an altered state of consciousness without recourse to the paranormal.[40]

... Terence Hines (2003) has written that spontaneous out-of-body experiences can be generated by artificial stimulation of the brain and this strongly suggests that the OBE experience is caused from "temporary, minor brain malfunctions, not by the person's spirit (or whatever) actually leaving the body."[70]

... Richard Wiseman (2011) has noted that OBE research has focused on finding a psychological explanation and "out-of-body experiences are not paranormal and do not provide evidence for the soul. Instead, they reveal something far more remarkable about the everyday workings of your brain and body."[74] '

One page 5 of this topic thread Sea Breeze mentions a case which regarding a purported Out of Body Experience (OBE) which I had learned of years ago (why I was researching the possibility of OBE and ESP, despite me already being an atheistic naturalist at the time). I learned back in discussions from an atheistic friend of my (who is medical doctor and ex-Christian) that a naturalist explanation was discovered. (see below in the quote of the wikipedia article). [I am referring to the following claim my by Sea Breeze.

"Here is just one example out of thousands: A person clinically dies on the operating table and their consciousness leaves their body. She sees various doctors, sees where they put things and even drifts outside the hospital above the roof and sees a particualr kind of tennis show on the roof.

Later upon reviving, she relates these details and even describes the color of shoe on the roof. When checked out, all the details she relates while out of her body are found to be accurate."]

The naturalistic explanation to the claim made by Sea Breeze is found under the subheading of "Paranormal" in the heading of "OBE theories" the above mention article located at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience . It says the following.

'In April 1977, a patient from Harborview Medical Center known as Maria claimed to have experienced an out-of-body experience. During her OBE she claimed to have floated outside her body and outside the hospital. Maria later told her social worker Kimberly Clark that during the OBE she had observed a tennis shoe on the third floor window ledge to the north side of the building. Clark then went to the north wing of the building and by looking out of the window could see a tennis shoe on one of the ledges. Clark published the account in 1984. The story has since been used in many paranormal books as evidence that a spirit can leave the body.[92][93]

In 1996, Hayden Ebbern, Sean Mulligan and Barry Beyerstein visited the Medical Center to investigate Clark's story. They placed a tennis shoe on the same ledge and found that it was visible from within the building and could easily have been observed by a patient lying in bed. They also discovered that the tennis shoe was easy to observe from outside the building and suggested that Maria may have overheard a comment about it during her three days in the hospital and then incorporated it into her OBE. They concluded "Maria's story merely reveals the naiveté and the power of wishful thinking" from OBE researchers seeking a paranormal explanation.[94] Clark did not publish the description of the case until seven years after it happened, casting doubt on the story. Richard Wiseman has said that although the story is not evidence for anything paranormal it has been "endlessly repeated by writers who either couldn't be bothered to check the facts, or were unwilling to present their readers with the more skeptical side of the story."[93] Clark responded to the accusations made in a separate paper.[95] '

On page 7 of this topic thread Sea Breeze said (to Jeffro) the following. "Isn't it true that materialism & naturalism have some pretty tight mental rules that adherents must follow as well in order to stay within the atheist fold so to speak?" I answer "No" to that question. Above I cited my on experience of exploring the concept of OBEs and of ESP despite me being an atheistic naturalist at the time (and I continued to be such). Being an atheistic naturalist does not prohibit one from exploring claims of ESP, the paranormal, and the supernatural, nor exploring possible supernatural explanations. I explore a range of phenomena and a ranged of alleged (but unproved) phenomena.From time to time I explore the possibility of the supernatural, despite being a naturalist. Such an approach is not a contradiction, but rather is consistent with a scientific approach of testing ideas, including of prevailing scientific theories and of one's core current beliefs and convictions. That is because scientists and other others using scientific minded approach often question prevailing scientific ideas and explore to see if they have weaknesses. People who adhere to a scientific mindset (including some those with an atheistic naturalist mindset, including myself) often keep their mind open enough (or occasionally open it enough) to question their belief, especially when they encounter new information which challenges their beliefs.

Within the scientific community scientists disagree with their peers on some matters, and they challenge and test the scientific claims of their peers to see if they have flaws. Some scientists even do scientific experiments pertaining to ESP, the paranormal and the supernatural (such as the possible effect of intercessory prayer in hospitals for healing of patients) to see if perhaps they have any validity, and they have published the results in leading peer reviewed scientific journals.

But those who are atheistic naturalists are more likely to find a naturalistic explanation than those who want to believe in supernaturalistic explanation. That is because those who are atheistic naturalists are more motivated to find a naturalistic explanation. Furthermore, on average the atheistic naturalists (at least in my opinion) are probably more rational than on average the theistic supernaturalists.

WingCommander, I quickly read some of the context a moment ago and now I think Paul meant he was telling his readers to not let Jews judge them for what they eat (such as pork) or drink and to not let Jews judge them for not observing an OT biblical festival, or biblical ritual observance of a new moon (such as for a celebration/holiday), or a biblical sabbath observance, for note verses 11 and 17 of chapter 2. I don't think the WT prohibits JWs from observing the festivals/holidays of the Mosaic Law, though they say such observances are unnecessary for Christians. I don't recall the WT ever prohibiting JWs from obeying the OT festival laws ascribed to Jehovah God or abstaining from pork, just as they don't prohibit JW parents from having their newborn sons circumcised. A Jewish JW woman (who is very intelligent and spiritually minded) in the JW congregation I last attended told me she eats Kosher meat, and said it tastes better (or maybe she said it is healthier).